Stream: Argo Write
Topic: Announcements
Eric Haas (Mar 15 2021 at 15:15):
We'll use this thread for project announcements.
Eric Haas (Mar 15 2021 at 17:44):
Argo Write Kickoff will be on March 24 1-2 Eastern (11-12 Pacific)
Tentative Agenda: https://hackmd.io/cC35SX1tRlKMwEKgWnkABQ?view#March-25-2021
Eric Haas (Mar 23 2021 at 21:20):
Agenda and Slides for tomorrow's kickoff here: https://confluence.hl7.org/display/AP/March+24+2021+Meeting+notes
Christopher Kundra (Apr 07 2021 at 14:48):
Hello @Eric Haas , are we convening today?
Eric Haas (Apr 07 2021 at 16:11):
Yes! I just noticed the calender invite is not recurring.
Agenda is here: https://confluence.hl7.org/display/AP/April+7+2021+Meeting+notes
Eric Haas (Apr 07 2021 at 16:26):
I am struggling with my calender, the call is on today here are the coordinates:
Join the meeting:
https://meet.jit.si/argo2020.lists
To join by phone instead, tap this: +1.512.402.2718,,4225410989#
Looking for a different dial-in number?
See meeting dial-in numbers: https://meet.jit.si/static/dialInInfo.html?room=argo2020.lists
If also dialing-in through a room phone, join without connecting to audio: https://meet.jit.si/argo2020.lists#config.startSilent=true
Christopher Kundra (Apr 07 2021 at 16:32):
Thanks Eric! 1pm ET?
Christopher Kundra (Apr 07 2021 at 16:33):
Just as I asked, it popped up on my calendar for 1pm ET. Perfect.
Eric Haas (Apr 19 2021 at 19:06):
Agenda for this weeks Meeting is:
- Review Last Week
- Should Practitioner writes be out of scope?
- Workflow Patterns
- Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=109547308
Eric Haas (Apr 19 2021 at 19:23):
I am hoping in this week's discussion we can suss out the apps requirements when we review the various patterns. @Jason Vogt @Cooper Thompson and @Emma Jones and @Drew Torres and anybody else who can invite app developers who are already doing writes to your Systems. Could you invite these folks to discuss what they do and their requirements?
Brett Marquard (Apr 21 2021 at 17:06):
new Jittsi this week!
Brett Marquard (Apr 21 2021 at 17:06):
https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Apr 21 2021 at 21:32):
It seems that the Google calender invite did not work for everyone interested: in case you don't have it - here is the link
Eric Haas (Apr 23 2021 at 00:42):
We are sending out a survey via email. If you are not on the mailing list and your organization supports patient writes to your system, we invite you to fill out this form to help lead us in our future discussions:
Eric Haas (May 03 2021 at 16:46):
Agenda for this weeks Meeting is:
- Review Last Week
- Finish reviewing Workflow Patterns
- Review Survey Results ( Fill out if your organization has not done so already!! )
- Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=109547308
Reminder Jittsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (May 18 2021 at 04:09):
Agenda for this weeks Meeting is:
- Review Last Week
- Functional Requirements for Client
- Proposed Approach
- Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=111125654
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Jun 30 2021 at 02:23):
Agenda for this weeks Meeting is:
- Review Last Week
- Continue walk through use case
- Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=113672504
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Jul 13 2021 at 04:37):
Agenda for this weeks Meeting is:
- Walk-through Direct Write API Proposal
- Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=113672504
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Jul 20 2021 at 22:24):
Agenda for the 7/28 Meeting:
- Review Walk Through of Draft Direct Write API and Discussion items:
- Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=113672554
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Aug 02 2021 at 23:59):
Agenda for the 8/11 Meeting:
- Review From Last Time
- Use Cases Covered
- Connectathon Preparation
- Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=113672566
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Aug 10 2021 at 01:30):
Updated agenda for 8 /11 Meeting
- Review From Last Time
- Client referencing other resources
- Client Supplied provenance
- Conformance
1. Using US Core Profiles
1. What Must Support Means - Connectathon Preparation
- Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=113672566
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Aug 23 2021 at 20:42):
Agenda for 8 /25 Meeting
- Review from Last Time
- Use Case Scenarios question re non-FHIR data
- Draft IG review
- Connectathon planning
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=113672568
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 17:52):
From today's discussion @Lisa Nelson I think it'd be good for us to:
- Establish that non-practitioner-sourced data SHALL be explicitly tagged (by the receiving server, based on authorization context) with something like
supplied-by-non-practitioner - Establish that inbound data SHOULD additional be tagged (by the server, based on authorization context) with
supplied-by-patientonly if the patient (not a related person or other authorized party) approved this app's write access.
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 17:53):
That'd allow for a consistent query pattern to differentiate data supplied by practitioner (?_tag=supplied-by-non-practitioner or ?_tag:not=supplied-by-non-practitioner), while allowing for additional nuance to distinguish patient-vs-other-informant within systems that can maintain this distinction.
Lloyd McKenzie (Aug 25 2021 at 19:33):
"practitioner" in FHIR means "anyone working in their professional capacity" - so it covers receptionists, cab drivers, custodians, etc. Presume what you really want is "supplied-by-non-medical-licensed-practitioner"?
Lloyd McKenzie (Aug 25 2021 at 19:34):
Or more specifically, provided by someone not acting in their licensed capacity. (If I were an RN but I was providing information in my capacity as a parent, the flag would presumably still be set.)
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 19:56):
We can work on wording for sure; the core discussion now is to nail down the intended semantics.
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 19:56):
(This discussion comes with context from today's call; apologies for the shorthand here.)
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:02):
I am confused, are you suggesting replacing the client-supplied patient-supplied tagging with additional Server supplied tagging based on implicit authorization and scopes?
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:04):
are slipping into the same morass of a surfeit of security tags that already existed for V3?
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:05):
the server can apply that tag based on the Create/Update transaction
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 20:05):
No, the proposal is: one tag that's always present
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:05):
what are the tradeoffs of pushing the tagging onto the Server instead of the Client
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 20:05):
One additional tag that servers are encouraged to populate
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 20:06):
Server can be trusted to enforce this tagging convention and ultimately need to enforce it. Clients can basically just supply tags as hints.
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:14):
How would it be used downstream? Does it have additional value for over and above patient-supplied? I mean the EHR knows this already for processing their business rules, but who else benefits. Rather than this this binary distinction, I would suspect if you are interested you would want to know who exactly supplied it (and then we are back to the v3 security codes)?
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:15):
you seem to be focused on "v3 security codes"... not sure why.. This is a use of security tags as is defined for the .meta element.
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:16):
as to the 'who', I think we should leverage Provenance for that concept. I would recommend Provenance be highly encouraged for any data provided from outside an organization regardless of if it came from the Patient, a payer, or external clinician. (or other)
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:17):
John Moehrke said:
you seem to be focused on "v3 security codes"... not sure why.. This is a use of security tags as is defined for the .meta element.
I don't know the exact name of the value set and riffing here. There are a set of codes that do this
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 20:17):
This is the same concept we've been talking about all along; we're just getting more precise about it as we work through discussions. "patient supplied" is a good shorthand but a slight misnomer for our intended semantis.
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:17):
the security wg would prefer you refer to these as "Healthcare Classification System" (aka HCS)
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:18):
yes the valueset is not optimal, but that is so very far away from the Argo Write topic...
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:21):
So back to my original question are we replacing "patient-supplied" with somethin like the "Healthcare Classification System" codes? or proposing that the server MAY supplement it with additional tags?
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:22):
I am guessing specifically http://terminology.hl7.org/CodeSystem/v3-ObservationValue#PATAST
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 20:25):
So back to my original question are we replacing "patient-supplied" with somethin like the "Healthcare Classification System" codes? or proposing that the server MAY supplement it with additional tags?
-
Requiring a the use of one tag which we've been roughly calling "patient supplied" but in fact we should more precisely call something like "supplied by patient or other patient designee rather than by a healthcare provider". Still one tag, just defining it more precisely. This can be supplied by clients but ultimately must be enforced by servers receiving data, so even if clients omit the tag, servers just apply it upon receipt.
-
Encouraging use of oen additional tag for "specifically came from the patient" (always/only used in conjunction with the tag from (1)). Same assessment as (1) re: server responsibilities.
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:26):
John Moehrke said:
I am guessing specifically http://terminology.hl7.org/CodeSystem/v3-ObservationValue#PATAST
as in THIS code
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:27):
5 PATAST patient asserted Security provenance metadata observation value used to indicate that an IT resource (data, information object, service, or system capability) was asserted by a patient.
Josh Mandel (Aug 25 2021 at 20:27):
What I'm referring to in (2) could leverage the code @John Moehrke is pointing to
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:28):
as to the 'who', I think we should leverage Provenance for that concept. I would recommend Provenance be highly encouraged for any data provided from outside an organization regardless of if it came from the Patient, a payer, or external clinician. (or other)
To that point, EHRs have indicated they have no capability to support Provenance from patient Apps. Hence we pushed documenting how to use client provided Provenance to a future version of Argo write.
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:33):
I am okay with that, it is up to the EHR to track these things itself.. but YOU specifically asked about 'who', and Provenance is the right answer to that question.
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:37):
now if you want to go a step further... forcing this meta.security tag is also an implementation detail that the EHR is likely to prefer it is able to do it however it wants.... Thus the Only thing we are talking about is:
Given that a Patient has authored some continent using Argo Write
When an app queries/retrieves that data
Then the data will have the PATAST tag will be on the data
And if a Provenance is available for the data that it will indicate the specifics of authorship (e.g. which app, which device, which user identity, if a delegate)
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:39):
Requiring a the use of one tag which we've been roughly calling "patient supplied" but in fact we should more precisely call something like "supplied by patient or other patient designee rather than by a healthcare provider". Still one tag, just defining it more precisely. This can be supplied by clients but ultimately must be enforced by servers receiving data, so even if clients omit the tag, servers just apply it upon receipt.
"patient supplied" definition is currently: "Data is supplied by patient - either patient generated data or data generated elsewhere and forwarded by patient"
suggested update definition to :
"Patient generated or mediated data that is supplied by patient or other patient designee (such as a parent or spouse) rather than by a healthcare provider."
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:40):
given the HCS is extensible binding to meta.security ... I think you must use PATAST unless you can explain how your code is totally different.
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:42):
patient-supplied is for meta.tag i.e. , 1) above
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:43):
why are you re-inventing when meta.security is the defined element for this concept? Please explain
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 20:46):
I ask because I know there are people averse to use of security tags. I don't understand why, but as security wg co-chair I have an interest in making this concept more approachable and thus used.
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 20:49):
see discussion summarized here:
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 21:00):
so the "... seems counter intuitive ..." seems more to me as an indication of ignorance. Which I very much understand that we have not been all that clear on how to use the meta.security... but that is not a persuasive argument against. I would like to be given the chance to convince the audience that it is the right solution
Eric Haas (Aug 25 2021 at 21:01):
Next chance at Connectathon
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2021 at 21:07):
I would request they start by reading the FHIR Core specification -- http://build.fhir.org/security-labels.html
Eric Haas (Aug 26 2021 at 02:34):
Connectathon Kick Off Call: Argo FHIR Write Wed Sep 1, 2021 1pm – 2pm Eastern Time
There will be Connectathon Kick Off Call next Wednesday in preparation for the upcoming September 14 - 15 Connectathon where we plan to test out the Draft Implementation Guidance for Argo Write. If you cannot make the call it will be recorded for your convenience.
Where: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Join by phone: (US) +1 409-698-0140 (PIN: 274472027)
Reminder signup for Connectathon by August 30
Track Description (patient supplied wt observation)
Eric Haas (Aug 31 2021 at 03:38):
In preparation for this week's Connectathon Kick off call , I have prepared a set of examples in a POSTMAN Collection to document the Argo Write API:
Eric Haas (Sep 01 2021 at 02:34):
Eric Haas (Sep 01 2021 at 20:38):
Eric Haas (Sep 07 2021 at 22:21):
Agenda for 9/8 Meeting
- Review from Last Time
- Connectathon planning: Attendees, goals, schedule
- Draft IG review: Data Integrity labeling, "mixin" Observation Profile
- Example Scenarios; Observations , DocumentReferences, MedAdmins, QuestionnaireResponses
- Gaps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=79495860
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Sep 20 2021 at 16:54):
No Argo Write Call This Week (9/22)
Due to the HL7 September Working Group Meeting, there will be no Argo Write Call this week, the next regularly scheduled meeting will be 10/6.
Tentative 10/6 Agenda:
-
Debrief on Connectathon
- Summary here: https://hackmd.io/sCmJS1TpTRS8bSZizWIWYw?view
-
Road map for project completion
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=79495860
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Oct 04 2021 at 17:45):
Argo Write Call This Week (10/6)
A reminder that there will be an Argo Write call this week. I was just made aware no invites were sent out. I will send out new invitations today.
Tentative 10/6 Agenda:
-
Debrief on Connectathon
- Summary here: https://hackmd.io/sCmJS1TpTRS8bSZizWIWYw?view
-
Road map for project completion
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=79495860
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Oct 06 2021 at 18:05):
as a follow up to today's call here is a copy of the document that @Bas van den Heuvel shared:
https://hackmd.io/G3yUvh10Tb6hcg_U_ImOLg
Eric Haas (Nov 01 2021 at 17:31):
Cancelling Argo Write Call This Week (11/3)
Note that there will no Argo Write call this week. I will cancel the invitations. Our next call will be 11/17. Please feel free to reach out to me if you have an questions or Argo Write topics you would like to discuss.
Eric Haas (Nov 15 2021 at 19:07):
Argo Write Call This Week (11/17)
A reminder that there will be an Argo Write call this week. With an eye toward wrapping up this years project, we will present a summary of current decisions and next steps.
11/17 Agenda:
Road map for project completion
- Review of Decisions
- Open Issues
- Proposed Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates : https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=81006084
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Nov 30 2021 at 17:32):
Change in Argo Write Call Schedule
There will be no Argo Write call this week ( 12/1/2021) . We will be holding our final 2 calls on the Wednesday 12/8 and 12/22 wrapping up this years project. A new invite will be sent shortly.
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates and executive summary can be found here: https://confluence.hl7.org/display/AP/Argo+Write+Homepage
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Eric Haas (Dec 07 2021 at 17:27):
Argo Write call this week ( 12/8/2021)
We will be holding our final Wrap up call on the Wednesday 12/8
Agenda:
Wrap up
Review Executive Summary
Next Steps
Meeting agenda/notes including call coordinates and executive summary can be found here: https://confluence.hl7.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=81013619
Reminder Jitsi meeting is: https://meet.jit.si/argo2021.write
Last updated: Apr 12 2022 at 19:14 UTC
