Stream: implementers
Topic: Unable to resolve invalid example reference
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 01:34):
Hi There
Is that ok to write reference element like:
<reference value="https://hive.biochemistry.gwu.edu/cgi-bin/prd/htscsrs/servlet.cgi?pageid=bcoexample_1"/>?
The build process will not cast error but it will generate info like:
[java] INFORMATION: Provenance.entity.reference (example provenance-example-biocompute-object): Unable to resolve invalid example reference https://hive.biochemistry.gwu.edu/cgi-bin/prd/htscsrs/servlet.cgi?pageid=bcoexample_1 in provenance-example-biocompute-object
Are there any idea on what's going on here. The link is able to click into:
https://hive.biochemistry.gwu.edu/cgi-bin/prd/htscsrs/servlet.cgi?pageid=bcoexample_1
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 01:35):
provenance-example-biocompute-object.xml
This is the example I used in build process
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 02:04):
for reasons of standards inetgrity, the build must be self contained.
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 02:07):
Is that means all the reference shall be the pointer to inner resource or FHIR specification?
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 02:36):
Or what shall I do if I want to contain external resources like documents, or snippets that might not be confomed with FHIR specification but actually is a 'reference'?
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 04:46):
we do that a lot from narrative, but you can't do it from a resource
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 05:38):
So I need to write my own narrative part in example, right?
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 05:50):
I'm not sure what you want to do. why not include the resource in the build?
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 05:53):
We have implemented and try to conform the resource as an example in Provenance resource, but somehow we want to present the external link to the original data. So that's why we are trying to use reference to point to its source. We are not sure if this is the right thing to do ..
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 05:54):
as in, in Provenance. entity.reference?
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 05:55):
Yes, to indicate the source of this example.
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 05:55):
@John Moehrke I missed a change to Provenance here. is it really true that you cannot reference a non-FHIR source material? surely this is not the intent of the committee on provenance? It should always allow a uri as source, so that you can quote some non-resource thing e.g. a CDA document, a web page, a v2 message....
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 05:56):
maybe Security believes that FHIR has become a closed world ;-)
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 06:01):
I wonder whether this info:
[java] INFORMATION: Provenance.entity.reference (example provenance-example-biocompute-object): Unable to resolve invalid example reference https://hive.biochemistry.gwu.edu/cgi-bin/prd/htscsrs/servlet.cgi?pageid=bcoexample_1 in provenance-example-biocompute-object
is a build code bug or that committee on Provenance simply does not allow non-Resource content as the entity. Now entity.Reference is a reference not a url for now...
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 06:03):
it should also allow url and you should use url.
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 06:03):
we'll have to see what John says
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 06:04):
I use the url and the url will redirect to the todo link, and it will cast an information like above...
So wait for the answer. Thanks for your help Grahame.
John Moehrke (Dec 20 2016 at 13:35):
Sorry for the delay... sleeping... We understand that the new Reference datatype contains Identifier which can point at anything. We were not trying to take away anything. We were just using the new Reference datatype the way that it seemed it was intended to be used. @Grahame Grieve is that wrong?
Lloyd McKenzie (Dec 20 2016 at 14:24):
Identifier is less of a pointer than URI is. But it may turn out to be more practical in terms of the sorts of things you actually want to point to - most artifacts will have business identifiers, but most won't have URIs.
John Moehrke (Dec 20 2016 at 15:11):
Identifier.system is a URI... and all the other elements are optional. This was our thinking for something that has a URI, but is neither a classic identifier nor a FHIR resource. The model seems to allow this.
yiwang (Dec 20 2016 at 15:31):
Thanks for your help, Lloyd and John. M.
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:09):
but no, @John Moehrke, a Reference is a reference to a resource whether it's done by reference or by identifier. It's not allowed to use a reference to refer to something that is not a resource.
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:10):
so as is now, Provenance says that you can never source anyinformation from something other than a resource
John Moehrke (Dec 20 2016 at 20:35):
We did not understand that restriction. We understood the new datatype opened up the opportunity. By your statement then, what is the use of reference.identifier? So one can't put in a business identifier that doesn't exist as a FHIR resource? That seems useless, as if I had a FHIR Resource, I would use the native Resource reference... right? This new Reference datatype seems confusing or wrong.
John Moehrke (Dec 20 2016 at 20:36):
I am happy for Provenance to be able to point at anything... We really thought we were doing the right thing
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:38):
so you can identify a resource by identifier when you know that, but you don't know exactly where it is.
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:38):
it does allow 'implicit resources', yes, in that you can refer to something that could be an resource one day.
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:39):
but still, it's an actual resource
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:39):
"References SHALL be a reference to an actual FHIR resource, and SHALL be resolveable (allowing for access control, temporary unavailability, etc). "
John Moehrke (Dec 20 2016 at 20:41):
so then... we need both a reference(ANY) and a unconstrained URI?
Lloyd McKenzie (Dec 20 2016 at 20:41):
I don't think that's necessariliy true in FM's intended use of Reference.identifier. There may not be a server anywhere that exposes the structure referenced by identifier as a FHIR resource.
John Moehrke (Dec 20 2016 at 20:44):
wonderful.. when you guys figure it out, let me know.
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:47):
that's what I said when I said 'implicit resources'
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:47):
but if FM are intending that you could reference a CDA document, on the grounds that we might define a resource for that one day... that would be different
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:48):
you need an reference and a URI, yes
Lloyd McKenzie (Dec 20 2016 at 20:49):
What they want probably falls under the banner of "implicit" resource
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 20:50):
FM yes. But no in this case
John Moehrke (Dec 20 2016 at 21:02):
okay GF#12480
Grahame Grieve (Dec 20 2016 at 21:06):
thx
John Moehrke (Dec 20 2016 at 22:18):
Note we do have an example in Provenance where the entity started as an HL7 v2 message, it got stored in a Binary that is put into the entity.reference. This from previous connectathons.
Paul Knapp (Jan 02 2017 at 08:51):
FM's intention is to refer to content (which is renderable as a resource) which may be referenceable by id (physical locator) or identifier (business identifier). If you wish to point to some other material which isn't physically or logically a resource then I think that needs an uri element.
Last updated: Apr 12 2022 at 19:14 UTC
