Stream: implementers
Topic: Message carrying a Docment
John Moehrke (Dec 22 2016 at 14:53):
If I have a FHIR Document, and I am carrying it in a FHIR Message (could be http response); do I have a Bundle within a Bundle? That is, does the Bundle that contains the FHIR Document stay intact when it is inside the Bundle that contains the whole message?
Grahame Grieve (Dec 22 2016 at 20:06):
yes you would put a bundle in a bundl;e
John Moehrke (Dec 22 2016 at 20:13):
so a FHIR Document is always contained in a Bundle... that is logical. So then a Reference (pointer) to a FHIR document is to the Bundle, or to the Composition within that Bundle?
Grahame Grieve (Dec 22 2016 at 20:18):
well, probably the Bundle, depending on exactly what you want to reference
John Moehrke (Dec 22 2016 at 20:30):
I want to reference 'the document'... so is that the Bundle, or the Composition?
John Moehrke (Dec 22 2016 at 20:32):
For example: I have a DocumentReference pointing at a FHIR document... Today when DocumentReference points at a CDA document, it is done by pointing at a Binary that contains the CDA.... Want a deterministic pattern for when it is a FHIR document vs CDA document
Grahame Grieve (Dec 22 2016 at 20:34):
if you want to point at the bundle - an authenticated collection of content, frozen in time - then you reference the bundle. If you want to refer to the collection of documents that are the set of versions of the same document - then you refer to the Composition
John Moehrke (Dec 22 2016 at 20:34):
so is a pointer to the Composition just pointing at the 'content'... where a formal 'document' only exists when it gets seralized into a Bundle? Using the definition of 'document' principles:
Persistence – Documents are persistent over time. The content of the document does not change from one moment to another. A document represents information stored at a single instance in time.
Wholeness - A document is a whole unit of information. Parts of the document may be created or edited separately, or may also be authenticated or legally authenticated, but the entire document is still to be treated as a whole unit.
Stewardship –A document is maintained over its lifetime by a custodian, either an organization or a person entrusted with its care.
Context - A clinical document establishes the default context for its contents
Potential for authentication - A clinical document is an assemblage of information that is intended to be legally authenticated.
John Moehrke (Dec 22 2016 at 20:35):
okay, that is reasonable and logical...
Ken Sinn (Sep 16 2020 at 20:35):
If I were to search for Message Bundles, and the messages are carrying Documents .. Would the returned SearchSet Bundle be a SearchSet Bundle, containing one or more Message Bundles, each containing a Document Bundle?
(I'm not trolling -- we actually have a use case for this)
Vassil Peytchev (Sep 16 2020 at 21:23):
The answer is yes, and given that your realize how strange that is in general, what is the particular use case?
In order for a search to work, someone must post the message Bundle to a Bundle endpoint, where the message is NOT being processed - why would you do that?
Lloyd McKenzie (Sep 16 2020 at 21:42):
I have a system that posts messages for subsequent polling retrieval by recipients, so there's definitely a use-case for posting messages to a Bundle endpoint and not expecting them to be processed. (Once successfully retrieved and custody taken, the receipient submits a batch delete to remove them from the intermediary repository.)
Ken Sinn (Sep 17 2020 at 00:06):
Async Messaging, where our FHIR server is an intermediary for senders and recipients. Senders will create Message Bundles (possibly containing a Document Bundle) and post it to the FHIR server, for the recipient to pick up. The recipients will search our server, and get a Searchset Bundle of all the Message Bundles (containing Document Bundles) intended for them. https://www.hl7.org/fhir/messaging.html#rest
John Moehrke (Sep 17 2020 at 12:04):
so you are re-inventing SMTP + POP/IMAP
Grahame Grieve (Sep 17 2020 at 12:41):
well, everyone else does it
David Pyke (Sep 17 2020 at 13:11):
What this world needs is a new email protocol that has all the benefits of SMTP but is more Direct
Last updated: Apr 12 2022 at 19:14 UTC
