Stream: implementers
Topic: Device bundles for Hospital
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 24 2020 at 22:56):
Hi All, ( /cc @Jason Walonoski ),
I am trying to find a site like Synthea that can help me build an inventory of devices at various facilities at a Hospital e.g. ED and In-Patient needs - installed at ORs, Patient rooms, Imaging etc.
Is there any website / tool exist that can help me map such devices bundles with one or more Hospitals bundle (like one built using Synthea's patient generator tool ) ?
Thank you.
Jason Walonoski (Aug 25 2020 at 12:04):
Not to my knowledge.
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2020 at 13:03):
unclear what you are asking for. Syntha is a synthetic data creation... you could certainly take syntha and modify it to create synthentic device data.
Todd Cooper (Aug 25 2020 at 14:42):
Ditto here re. confusion - perhaps because of the possibly overloaded use of the term "Bundle"?
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 25 2020 at 14:57):
Hi @Todd Cooper , @John Moehrke , when I say Device Bundle - I meant a Device resource - representing an medical equipment in the Hospital could be mapped to more than one location within Hospital. Locations such ED, Operating room, patient room, Nurses stations, Imaging Labs etc.
I foresee bundled in couple of ways . Organization / Hospital bundle listing all a unique list of devices used in that hospital, followed by mapping of Device instances by locations in the hospital as spelled out above.
Other type is where - similar to each patient bundle created by Synthea - a device bundle that shows mapping used by hospital and its locations in a given State / City.
Does that help ?
@Christiaan Knaap, do you handle such need in the integration and performance test of Vonk server via Vonk Loader ?
Thank you.
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2020 at 16:19):
okay, then let me pull these things apart. I think you should stop thinking about Syntha, as you are thinking about a real-world scenario. Syntha is a synthetic data creation tool, not real life. What I think you are asking for is a Implementation Guide explaining how to manage Device details and their location.
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2020 at 16:20):
best place to start is the IG registry https://registry.fhir.org/guides
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2020 at 16:20):
search on "Device" and you will find a few IG already available
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2020 at 16:20):
@Todd Cooper manages a group that spans HL7 and IHE in this area, he might be better able to zero in on a device registry
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 25 2020 at 16:45):
Thank you @John Moehrke ,
The reason I prefer to rely on Synthea is an ability to create a good type of population datasets across various FHIR resources - primarily built using Patient, Practitioner and Hospital bundles. And , with many other capabilities that allows you to split records, create CCDA ... tons of configuration including Patient Model Framework creation at one place.
I will look into IG registry and research on what's available there for Hospitals settings.
@Todd Cooper - your guidance on finding that device registry will be appreciated.
@Jason Walonoski - It will be great if such Device registry is captured under src/main/resources in Synthea to generate bundles as I spelled out. Thoughts ?
Thank you
John Moehrke (Aug 25 2020 at 16:48):
getting a sample dataset from syntha comes second, not first.
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 25 2020 at 20:32):
John Moehrke said:
best place to start is the IG registry https://registry.fhir.org/guides
Hi @Todd Cooper , I didn't see any IG for Devices to be configured for Hospitals at https://registry.fhir.org/guides - specifically for R4. Your guidance will be appreciated. Thank you.
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 25 2020 at 21:35):
Device inventory is being handled by OO
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 25 2020 at 21:35):
For counting which devices are where, we don't have a resource yet.
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 25 2020 at 21:35):
We should have a draft real soon
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 25 2020 at 21:37):
You would not use a bundle with devices. You would use a InventoryReport (not sure whether that will be the name) that mentions several devices in different locations in different statuses
Jason Walonoski (Aug 25 2020 at 22:52):
@Nilesh Pagare I would hesitate to include that data under src/main/resources in Synthea, because I have a feeling it would be humongous. Maybe if it was a reasonable size and public domain, but I doubt you'll find that to be honest.
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 25 2020 at 23:01):
Hello @Jose Costa Teixeira , @Jason Walonoski , I really appreciate your responses.
@Jason Walonoski - even if I could get 10-20 devices - especially IoT Enabled - to simulate for patient rooms at ICU, CCU, PACU, MedSurg , Telemetry .. will be great to begin with.
You are right, I am not able to find a catalog with unique set of equipments / device types (not necessary brand and product SKU) in the hospital settings anywhere yet .
@Jose Costa Teixeira - I need a bundle by room type within a hospital by the type of services offered in that facility. Reports for auditing are definitely needed , but rollout of devices at the Healthcare organization at each of their facility is a part of the user story that we are working on .
I truly think , source like Synthea is the way to go for providing such datasets / even for validating the proposed resource design.
Thank you.
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 25 2020 at 23:20):
@Jason Walonoski - hypothetically , even if that catalog was public what count would you speculate of the devices that are electric / battery operated ?
At this point, I don't want to count devices that are not electrically operated e.g. any PPE, Mechanical operated Wheel chair, guage, sterile equipment etc . I need a list of devices that are attached / used by Patients and those are electric / battery operated with / without IoT Capabilities.
Any guess from the community here will be welcome.
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 26 2020 at 00:51):
I don't understand your reply. I mentioned that your functionality would use new resource types, not the ones you mention. You confirm the scope but then you say the solution is Synthea?
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 26 2020 at 02:03):
Jose Costa Teixeira said:
Device inventory is being handled by OO
What's OO ?
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 26 2020 at 02:14):
Jose Costa Teixeira said:
I don't understand your reply. I mentioned that your functionality would use new resource types, not the ones you mention. You confirm the scope but then you say the solution is Synthea?
What I mean is for generating a test population data in an organization / hospitals with Devices data as per my need could be addressed by solution like Synthea.
Representing that information using a new Resource Type or by building bundles of a bundle is a solution that I am open to learn from and discuss with you. Within my limited skills of FHIR, I believe that InventoryReport like Resource could certainly be used for audit reporting. But, to assign an inventory of Medical equipments , devices in a Bundle of type Organization, we could use a bundle of type like CatalogEntry with a Codeable concept that points to inventory of Medical equipment , devices etc.
Such solution could be factored in offerings like Synthea where we could provide a list of Medical Equipment , Devices etc that will be mapped in the target room / facility etc in the Organization bundle.
Your thoughts and guidance will be very much appreciated.
Thank you.
René Spronk (Aug 26 2020 at 06:38):
OO = Orders and Observations, the name of a workgroup within the HL7 organization (http://www.hl7.org/Special/committees/orders/index.cfm ). Also note there is a #devices stream on this chat.
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 26 2020 at 07:24):
I see. Thank you @René Spronk .
I am not sure how the Devices - rather what I am seeking on this chat is applicable under OO ? From the domain knowledge so far, this falls under Administration resource.
René Spronk (Aug 26 2020 at 07:31):
Given that the subject area (devices) falls under OO, inventories of devices also fall under OO. (Likewise: inventories of medications fall under a Medication work group). I think Jose only mentioned OO because that's where you may find the Device experts (which most on this chat won't be). Try posting your question on the #devices stream
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 26 2020 at 07:38):
Understood. Thank you for the guiding path. Much appreciated.
Can I move this thread under #devices ? or link it under both #Orders and Observation WG & #devices ?
René Spronk (Aug 26 2020 at 07:47):
It is considered polite not to ask the same question in multiple streams, so you could start with one of those. [if you don't get any answer for a couple of days, try the other stream] You can always include the URL of this thread, although a rephrasing of your question (given the limited information you received above) is probably useful.
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 26 2020 at 07:51):
I am not sure if Zulip shows any trigger or notification on streams referenced by the # sign to notify experts on those streams.
René Spronk (Aug 26 2020 at 08:22):
It's up to the readers of a stream to define if, and how, they wish to be notified.
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 26 2020 at 14:15):
@Jose Costa Teixeira , I would like to a stopgap solution while waiting for the resource is available as a normative. Any thoughts on my input that I provided above after your message ?
Thank you
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 26 2020 at 16:12):
some thoughts:
- CatalogEntry is not expected to live for long, and it was not designed to support inventory.
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 26 2020 at 16:14):
Nilesh Pagare said:
But, to assign an inventory of Medical equipments , devices in a Bundle of type Organization, we could use a bundle of type like CatalogEntry with a Codeable concept that points to inventory of Medical equipment , devices etc.
The inventoryreport resource, when available, would be self-sufficient. I don't know what you mean with bundle of type Organization, or a bundle of type catalogentry...
Todd Cooper (Aug 26 2020 at 17:40):
NOTE: I posted this to the #devices > Device "Bundles" for Hospitals stream. But at this point @Jose Costa Teixeira has given clear, accurate guidance + we can always take up (e.g., confirm) on the joint OO / DEV / BRR session in the September WGM.
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 26 2020 at 19:14):
Yes, we plan to discuss the matters of inventory in the WGM, and any input from the devices stream will be good input.
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 26 2020 at 19:15):
I think the SANER project had also the same requirement: to handle inventory while we don't have a resource. @Keith Boone ?
Todd Cooper (Aug 26 2020 at 20:42):
@Jose Costa Teixeira will that be in the OO joint with DEV / BRR or some other session? Hopefully we can follow-up in the joint.
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 26 2020 at 20:43):
Yes, I meant the joint session
Jose Costa Teixeira (Aug 26 2020 at 20:43):
Sorry I wasn't clear
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 26 2020 at 21:19):
Hello @Todd Cooper , @Jose Costa Teixeira - thank you for your support.
I wasn't planning to attend WMG. Is there any way I can get access to this session to present our use case ?
Thank you.
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 26 2020 at 21:20):
Jose Costa Teixeira said:
Nilesh Pagare said:
But, to assign an inventory of Medical equipments , devices in a Bundle of type Organization, we could use a bundle of type like CatalogEntry with a Codeable concept that points to inventory of Medical equipment , devices etc.
The inventoryreport resource, when available, would be self-sufficient. I don't know what you mean with bundle of type Organization, or a bundle of type catalogentry...
Understood. I would appreciate the guidance on how to handle it now, while the planned resource takes its own course till becomes Normative.
Keith Boone (Aug 27 2020 at 04:09):
If you come up a level in explaining what you want (don't think in FHIR, but rather in customer terms), you might get more help here.
Nilesh Pagare (Aug 28 2020 at 23:29):
Thank you @Keith Boone .
Last updated: Apr 12 2022 at 19:14 UTC
